Murray Smith

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Posts by Murray Smith

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  82

  "Religion...is the Opium of the People" - What did Marx Mean?

  by cofty in

  1. social
  2. current

  when read in context karl marx was not directly attacking religion when he wrote those famous words.. .

  religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress.

  religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation.

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  Murray Smith

  Great thread people . . . it's added a great deal to a previously poorly understood quote on my part I have to admit. Also, some great points made which have a multitude of implications in JW world.

  EG. How often have we heard words like "wait on Jehovah" when a glaring injustice is being fobbed. Rather than treat the source of the pain it's "take another puff on the pipe son . . . you'll feel better"

  OR. "everything hidden will one day be revealed" . . . actually that's gotta be mainlining the stuff . . . feel the rush at the thought of that!

  No doubt there's plenty more to choose from . . . Political ideology aside, Marx makes a very valid point
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  75

  It Bears Repeating...

  by AGuest in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  "you have to let it all go, neo: fear... doubt... and disbelief.

  free... your mind.

  " - morpheus.

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  Murray Smith

  Poppers . . . I believe my 'label' for this kind of freedom is 'Death'

  Poppers . . . I'm sure you must know that was tongue in cheek . . . and your response, to my absolute delight, is largely in agreement with what I was trying to say. Perhaps this illustrates how similar concepts find different expression.

  I feel personally that anything that inhibits a free and unobstructed flow of new information to the mind is limiting . . . a sweeping generalisation perhaps . . . but no mind is fully closed . . . even the most avid of "clingers" recieves new information from a variety of sources whether they like it or not . . . thier "beliefs are slowly being modified" even though they may resist it. But it's the resistance that's the problem not the belief . . . and as I mentioned earlier, committed JW's (and yes, I was one for 20+) are a perfect eg.

  Language and labels are not as limiting to thinking as they are to expression of thought . . . And I freely admit to my limitations there.

  But while my ideas and beliefs may change (and they do) I would prefer that they don't dissappear altogether. As long as I can change them at will they're kinda nice to have around.
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  75

  It Bears Repeating...

  by AGuest in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  "you have to let it all go, neo: fear... doubt... and disbelief.

  free... your mind.

  " - morpheus.

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  Murray Smith

  I am somewhat immodestly quoting myself from an earlier thread but perhaps this too bears repeating . . . ?

  1. Because of our reliance on language we feel a need to 'label' things . . . often with a single word. And yet that label will often hold a huge variety of meaning depending on the preconceptions, biases, life experience, knowledge etc of the interpreter. When we use a 'label', we use it only within the confines of our own variables and these can only be limiting to our understanding of others who use the same label . . . others who may have a very different interpretation.

  2. Humans tend to come to "conclusions" based on current knowledge, yet often making little room for the yet "unknown". We can't stand a 'hung jury' but a definitive stance on a matter tends to close us off to the unknown, if and when it becomes knowable, simply because it is contrary to our definitive stance. This can be very limiting . . .

  Many believe they are completely receptive to new knowledge, but are in reality "barrow-pushers" of thier definitive position and receptive only to that which reinforces it . . . committed JW's are a perfect example. Beware of labels . . . and be generous in allowing for the unknown . . . we don't always have to take an intransient definitive position in order to believe . . . nor is it weak or shameful to change what you believe.

  May I also add that it appears to me that Morpheus was speaking in the context of the limiting nature of these factors i.e. fear, doubt, disbelief . . . not the freedom that critical thinking allows. This type of doubt is the one where the individual does not feel "free" to act on what he believes and this too is limiting.

  It's not enough to simply be free of doubts and disbeliefs. A mind that clings to belief is still a mind that is not free; that is a mind that is bound to a set of thoughts because it identifies with those thoughts - that is not freedom. Freedom is freedom from everything, including beliefs.

  Poppers . . . I believe my 'label' for this kind of freedom is 'Death'
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  124

  JWN's Night Shift vs Day Shift

  by SweetBabyCheezits in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i'm sure i'm the very last person to notice the day shift / night shift groups of posters but i kinda think it's funny when i pop in on an evening and discover posters i've never seen, but who have 10,000 posts.. that's all.

  carry on.

  situation "normal".. edit: hi, night crew, i'm on the day crew, btw..

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  Murray Smith

  And since this thread has completely lost it's way . . . there's one more thing I should make clear . . . Pavlova (like kiwifruit, Phar Lap, Russell Crowe, Crowded House, etc) is of New Zealand origin . . . that's me out . . . I'm movin over for the day shift.
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  124

  JWN's Night Shift vs Day Shift

  by SweetBabyCheezits in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i'm sure i'm the very last person to notice the day shift / night shift groups of posters but i kinda think it's funny when i pop in on an evening and discover posters i've never seen, but who have 10,000 posts.. that's all.

  carry on.

  situation "normal".. edit: hi, night crew, i'm on the day crew, btw..

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  Murray Smith

  Agree with all of that Broken Promises . . . but I'm afraid I don't fit the stereotype . . . I can't play or sing a note! I have three sons who can . . . though you wouldn't want them on your porch . . . Heavy rock is what they punch out . . . they practice in a sound proof room . . . sounds great!
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  4

  What Does The GB Really Believe?

  by Murray Smith in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  a speculative question i suppose .

  but i am quite intrigued by this.. .

  a witness for 20-odd years .

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  Murray Smith

  There's been a lot of water under the bridge since Ray's departure . . . plenty to cause them to look at themselves I would think.

  I suspect you are right Alfred . . . I didn't think it was possible, but they have gone down even further in my estimation . . . the current situation can only be the doing of those who have little or no real fear of God
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  124

  JWN's Night Shift vs Day Shift

  by SweetBabyCheezits in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i'm sure i'm the very last person to notice the day shift / night shift groups of posters but i kinda think it's funny when i pop in on an evening and discover posters i've never seen, but who have 10,000 posts.. that's all.

  carry on.

  situation "normal".. edit: hi, night crew, i'm on the day crew, btw..

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  Murray Smith

  Let's be clear . . . I'm not Australian . . . I call XXXX "beer" cos I know how to spell . . . I'm a South Pacific Islander . . . Night shift you say Broken Promises? . . . brilliant! . . . fits nicely with it being dark and all.
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  124

  JWN's Night Shift vs Day Shift

  by SweetBabyCheezits in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i'm sure i'm the very last person to notice the day shift / night shift groups of posters but i kinda think it's funny when i pop in on an evening and discover posters i've never seen, but who have 10,000 posts.. that's all.

  carry on.

  situation "normal".. edit: hi, night crew, i'm on the day crew, btw..

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  Murray Smith

  But if one wanted to establish the terms "day crew" and "night crew" for the sake of a silly discussion, would it not be reasonable to view time from the perspective of the server's time zone?

  OK . . . so help me out here . . . I live on a South Pacific Island . . . it's 20 past midnight . . . am I day shift or night shift?
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  124

  JWN's Night Shift vs Day Shift

  by SweetBabyCheezits in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i'm sure i'm the very last person to notice the day shift / night shift groups of posters but i kinda think it's funny when i pop in on an evening and discover posters i've never seen, but who have 10,000 posts.. that's all.

  carry on.

  situation "normal".. edit: hi, night crew, i'm on the day crew, btw..

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  Murray Smith

  Hey . . . don't forget us "downunder" in the South Pacific . . . after all, this is the 'Internet' not the 'Amerinet' . . .
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  36

  Are You A "Dictionary Atheist"?

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  there is more to .. atheism than simple denial of one claim; it's actually based on a scientific attitude that values evidence and reason, that rejects claims resting solely on authority, and that encourages deeper exploration of the world.

  atheism is not solely a negative claim about gods, but is based on a whole set of positive values ... that denial of god thing?

  it's a consequence, not a cause.

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  Murray Smith

  Even the very term "Dictionary Atheist" highlights to me a couple of limitations which often prejudice human thinking . . .

  1. Because of our reliance on language we feel a need to 'label' things . . . often with a single word. And yet that label will often hold a huge variety of meaning depending on the preconceptions, biases, life experience, knowledge etc of the interpreter. When we use a 'label', we use it only within the confines of our own variables and these can only be limiting to our understanding of others who use the same label . . . others who may have a very different interpretation.

  2. Humans tend to come to "conclusions" based on current knowledge, making little room for the yet "unknown". We can't stand a 'hung jury' but a definitive stance on a matter tends to close us off to the unknown, if and when it becomes knowable, simply because it is contrary to our definitive stance. This can be very limiting . . .

  Many believe they are completely receptive to new knowledge, but are in reality "barrow-pushers" of thier definitive position and receptive only to that which reinforces it . . . committed JW's are a perfect example. Beware of labels . . . and be generous in allowing for the unknown . . . we don't always have to take a definitive position . . . nor is it weak or shameful to change what you believe.